Interview by Jocelle Koh with Mo’Ju
Transcript by Grant Zeng

We welcome Wiradjuri/Filipino singer-songwriter and visionary Mo’Ju to the Everywhere and Nowhere show to share their thoughts on change as they embark on a new sonic journey with their groundbreaking new album “ORO PLATA MATA”. A complex amalgamation of Mo’Ju’s culture, heritage, sense of self and worldview, it is a heartfelt call for change that touches on topics such as eco-anxiety and capitalism whilst elevating the singer-songwriter’s iconic alt-R&B sound to new heights.

-start of transcript-

Jocelle:
Welcome Mo’Ju to our show. I’m so happy to have you. I’ve been a fan for so long. We just wanted to chat with you a little bit about your latest album, ORO, PLATA, MATA. It’s honestly such a unique nod to your roots and a new synthesis of your ideas. Can you share with us a little bit about this album and maybe what the title means?

Mo’Ju:
Well firstly, thanks for having me. I’m a fan of your work. It’s so nice to be here. Yeah, look, there’s a lot going on that kind of inspired this record and a lot of reasons why I chose the title of the album. I guess the kind of genesis of that like the the original kind of thought behind it was I wanted to pay homage to my Tito Peque Gallaga who made the film Oro, Plata, Mata in the early 80s. Which is considered like quite a seminal work in Filipino cinema.

So he passed in 2020 and I have been talking to my Tita, Maddy, his wife, and I said I would like to do something that kind of speaks to the legacy of his work in a way. Well, I hoped it does, you know, and she was so supportive and encouraging, and she actually ended up on the album, which is beautiful. So it was sort of born out of that, and that ongoing conversation with her that really encouraged me to do it.

But in the process of kind of researching the album and doing all the due diligence and background and everything, I sort of realised that Oro, Plata, Mata is like, also a superstition, an architectural superstition in the Philippines that kind of revolves around the number three. And I just thought that was such a powerful number … and the way that the story in the film is told, I kind of wanted to use that as a foundation for how I set this album out. So I mean, I could talk about it endlessly, it goes on and on. But for me, there was a lot of meaning and a lot of things that kept coming up that reaffirmed that that was the direction I wanted to take it, and that’s the reason why.

Jocelle:
What does Oro, Plata Mata actually mean? Is it Tagalog?

Mo’Ju:
So it’s actually Spanish. So as you would know, the Philippines was colonized by them for like 300 years. So it’s a post colonial kind of superstition. ‘Oro’ meaning gold, ‘plata’ meaning silver and ‘mata’ meaning death in this context. So it’s when you’re building things, you don’t want to land on ‘mata’.

Jocelle:
So it’s like a saying of some sort.

Mo’Ju:
Yeah, say you’re building a staircase, you have to count the stairs, oro plata, mata. You don’t want to land on mata.

Jocelle:
Ah, okay. Like if you’re walking, you don’t want to step on the crack, something like that.

Mo’Ju:
Yeah, yeah. Similar kind of thing. So the album is kind of set in three parts. And to me it’s like, well, I hope that people just kind of keep listening to it on repeat so that we don’t land on mata because that would be really bad.

Jocelle:
I get you, I get you… I think it’s like it kind of all I feel that album is kind of like a loop to me. It’s like a circle, so you just have to keep listening. Like it encourages you to keep the circle going, in some sense. So that’s really great. Great for the algorithm and great for you!

Yes and no, like my identities, like in all the intersecting parts of my identity, that’s just what, like, that’s who I am. So that’s what I carry into any situation, you know? Like it informs everything I do on some level, and that’s conscious or not.

-Mo’Ju

Mo’Ju:
You know, there was so many things going on. And I think each of those kind of ideas really spoke to what like the songs kind of (were about). The first chapter of the album ORO… it’s Gold, Money, and Midas, and I’m really talking about ideas around wealth and fame and clout and like status and these things that we kind of, in a capitalist society are quite fixated on… it’s a critique, but it’s introspective.

It’s like, how am I complicit in these things… It’s not kind of ‘this is bad, and should, you know, you should feel bad. And you should live your life this way.’ There’s none of that, there’s no judgement, it’s just like, ‘Oh, we live in this world, and this is how things work, and what does that mean for me? And how does that affect me? And yeah, how do I participate in that?’

And then, so PLATA being silver, the second chapter of that album is really about family, and ancestral knowledge, and community and interpersonal relationships, and sort of the things that to me have real value, more than material things. So you have to care for them more, because they tarnish more easily.

And MATA being death or bad luck, for me, that’s where I sort of talked about eco anxiety and kind of all of the things that are happening, like, you know, I sort of feel existential,

Jocelle:
Yeah, for sure.

Mo’Ju:
Like what’s happening environmentally, like what’s happening in terms of where are we headed as a society, I guess. But at the same time, I think hopeful. I still believe that there’s the potential for for us to like…

Jocelle:
Move forward in a better direction.

Mo’Ju:
Exactly. Yeah, progress.

Jocelle:
Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. and I do feel like the album is very unique, because obviously, many people have done like social justice album concepts in the past. But it’s often, like you said, it’s very pointed, and very, I feel it’s very sharp. But the way that you did it, you incorporated a lot of your Filipino heritage into this whole album, and you made it really, really personal. So it’s not so much about the issues and trying to be like an activist in a very, like traditional sense. But really, from your point of view, as a citizen of the world, like, this is what you care about, you know, and I think that’s really, really special. And I saw that you also included some traditional percussions, like into the album as well. How did that come about? Was it very intentional for you to include your heritage into this whole record?

Mo’Ju:
Yes and no, like my identities, like in all the intersecting parts of my identity, that’s just what, like, that’s who I am. So that’s what I carry into any situation, you know? Like it informs everything I do on some level, and that’s conscious or not.

So yeah, but like, yes and no, there were there were certain obviously stylistic things that we did, when making this record that were really intentional, like that, where it’s like, oh, I want to marry [those things together], because so much of what I do, you know, I make contemporary music. And I’m working in like genres like Soul and R&B and electronic music.

So there’s a lot of, you know, kind of modern influence and a lot of modern sounds. And I don’t know, there’s something about being able to kind of marry that with traditional sounds or things that come from [my heritage]. And I think that that actually set the tone of like the record in terms of like, in a conceptual way, because that is what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the way the past and the present and the future all sort of meet.

[…] I think that a lot of that is just in that I, more than ever before, know what I’m trying to achieve as an artist. What I want to say and I have the confidence to like, yeah, to trust myself in that creative process.

– Mo’Ju

Jocelle:
Yep. So it’s like, it’s like kind of it started not being intentional, because that’s what you’re bringing into every musical conversation you’re having, but it kind of became intentional as the record conceptualised itself?

Mo’Ju:
Yeah, I guess so. And like, you know, you kind of move forward, like really deliberately. It’s like, I don’t know if it’s like, oh, there’s this like, great, deep meaning to why I chose this instrument. It’s just like, this instrument is part of, you know, my person. So it’s part of my head. And then everybody’s, as much as you know, like, using synthesisers, or, you know, or whatever. It’s like, that’s all part of like, what appeals to me aesthetically, what excites me creatively, you know, it’s all it’s all connected to me.

Jocelle:
Right. You also mentioned that you felt like a certain pressure in the past to conform to like expectations of what your music should be. But for you, this album was kind of like a release like moving past that. I feel like that’s something that’s really, really difficult to do, actually. So can you share a bit about how you managed to move past those expectations and how that has shaped into this new record?

Mo’Ju:
Yeah, I think just confidence, like experience and kind of realizing that, actually, the more confident and the more experience I got, and the more I was able to kind of articulate myself and back myself in a creative environment. You know, like trust in my own creative intuition, but also the curation of like, the people that I have around me. It’s like, I’m really conscious of who I invite into creative collaboration, and what their agenda is, and what their intentions are in that space.

Is it about flexing their egos? Or is it about like, serving the songs? And I think as you get better at knowing, you know, I better know, what I want to do as an artist now, and I think, also, it’s just like there’s so many things I wanted to do. And I didn’t know how that looked, because I’m informed by so many different kinds of music and it’s very different for art, it’s like, you know, that can be really overwhelming.

So when you kind of find your own lane, and you’re in it, and then you know, exactly who the people are around, that you should have around you. And, you trust and there’s equity in those relationships, things work better. And it feels better when you’re doing it., and if it’s feeling good, then the end product, like I think this is the best, this album and the and the EP, O.K, that we made at the end of 2020, oh, we released it at the end of 2021. It’s sort of like the team of people that worked on it. And it’s like, to me, it’s like the best that it’s ever felt to make music.

Jocelle:
Wow. That’s great.

Mo’Ju:
And I’m really proud of the music because usually I get to this point, I’m like, ‘we should have done this, or done that’. Like, it could’ve been different or whatever. And this time around, I’m like, no no and I don’t know if that’s also just like, age and maturity or whatever, but I really love this work. I’m really proud of it. I know that I still want to continue to evolve, and I’m always striving to do better, but I am at ease and very comfortable with what I’ve done.

Jocelle:
Yeah. And I think you touched on two important points. Other than confidence, I think time as well, right? Because they kind of link together, you know, that as you grow, I mean time passes, and then you grow more confident, you grow into someone who knows themselves better, and what kinds of spaces they should put themselves in, in order to produce the best work or to be their best selves. And I think that’s maybe where like this record has kind of cumulated at like a really important point for you. And I can totally feel that I do feel like there’s something different between this record and some of your past ones, and it’s really, really exciting to see.

Mo’Ju:
Well, thank you. Yeah, I think that a lot of that is just in that I, more than ever before, know what I’m trying to achieve as an artist. What I want to say and I have the confidence to trust myself in that creative process.

Jocelle:
For sure. And as you mentioned, I think there is a certain sense of urgency, which I think is presented really brilliantly in this record, and it links to our whole concept of change that is for this radio show, and of course, I think in some sense, it’s part of your album as well. How do you think this momentum that you’ve created relates to the topic of change and its importance today?

Mo’Ju:
Well, look, you know, it’s not really for me to tell other people what meaning to take from the record. I know what I was feeling at the time that I made it. And that was that, you know, like, I was feeling really overwhelmed by where we’re at in the world. I was kind of concerned, I’ve been concerned about what the future looks like, and particularly becoming a parent for the first time. Like, I started to get concerned about what the world would look like, so yeah, you know, change.

I don’t like, I’m not pretending to have any of the answers but I am sort of saying, that song, “Change Has To Come”, for me is really about, like a longing for community, and kind of going, we silo ourselves from one another through, you know, kind of social media and all of this. It’s like an over kind of saturation of artificial socialisation, you know? It’s like, yeah, we’re not actually tapped into community,

Jocelle:
We’re not actually interacting and engaging.

Mo’Ju:
Interacting, yeah, but we kind of burn ourselves out, because we’re constantly stimulated by it, you know? So, you know, for me that sort of a lot of what that song was it, there’s so many things that that songs about to me, just like, it is just kind of going, I just want to be with people again. I want to be with family and community and I just want to be with people again, and I feel like we’re losing touch with one another. So that was like, the main kind of motivator in that song.

But, you know, in a broader sense […] my job is to leave enough space, like, say something, but also leave enough space in there for people to kind of create their own relationship with the music and develop their own meaning. It’s really subjective, and it’s really personal, and like I said, I’m not out here doing stuff [like] preaching…It’s like, this was my personal introspection, like I was reflecting on the duality of my experience as being somebody who feels like I’m stuck in this rat race, you know, living in this capitalist kind of society. But at the same time, I’m totally complicit in it. Like I’ve got a part in it

Jocelle:
We all are.

Mo’Ju:
Computer and I drive a car, you know what I mean? I’m totally a participant in that. So what does that mean? And those were the questions that I was kind of grappling with to a degree. Personally, and I felt like, ‘oh, that’s pretty relatable, I reckon for most people’, but I just, you know, I’m just as I’m equally as interested to hear what other people get to say, you know, like, I think that’s more interesting. I think that actually is like far more interesting, because I already know what I was thinking. What does everyone think when they’re hearing it? That’s kind of more of a question for me anyway. I need to find out, too.

Jocelle:
I totally get where you’re coming from, and I think that’s a really great mindset to have. Because, you know, you do have some artists who have a really dominant viewpoint that they want to put out their specific message about themselves, about their branding, but end of the day, all audiences are the same, like it goes to them, and they get to make their own decision. So I think is really exciting to function in that way because then you don’t know what you’re going to get back, as opposed to trying to push a certain message out and be like, ‘oh, no, it’s not reaching, and therefore, I failed as an artist,’ so yeah.

Mo’Ju:
Well you know, even with Native Tongue, and I think I learned that with the last album, Native Tongue, you know, where that song in particular; because that was the song everybody was talking about. And that was so personal for me.

That was about my relationship with language, and my relationship with family, and, culture, and history, and ancestry. You know, it was like, my experience of being a third culture, kid, and feeling really displaced by the fact that, you know, being First Nations and second generation, Filipino, Australian. You know, my grandfather, my maternal grandfather’s white. So there’s all these things, and I was like, I don’t really….. like, it’s in a song. The refrain is, “I don’t know where I belong”, right? That song I feel like, once I put it out into the world, it ceased to actually be about me, or any of the things that I had written it for.

It became part of a bigger kind of swept up in this, the zeitgeist and this, like bigger conversation that was being had. And people really projected a lot of meaning onto it that I think wasn’t really about me. I became kind of the poster child for something that like, I wasn’t actually necessarily trying to set. I think there were just like a lot of takes on what that meant. And so I learned quickly that I, you’ve kind of got to let go. Once it’s out in the world, it doesn’t really matter what you intended.

Jocelle:
It’s tricky, it’s tricky. Okay, I have one last question for you today. I think ORO, PLATA, MATA covers so much ground like from an introspective level to like, overarching critiques on so many situations and issues that we’ve discussed. I know it’s hard but if you were to choose one song on this record to introduce the record to new listeners which song would you choose?

Mo’Ju:
I don’t know if this is the one that will actually get people [to listen to the album], but I think my favourite song on this record is actually “Swan Song”. It’s the last song on the album, I think it kind of summarises I guess what the whole album is about, in a way. It has a sense of hopefulness about it, it incorporates all the elements, I think sonically, aesthetically that I really felt were integral to the album like the use of Kulintang, my Tita Maddy’s voice, there’s still like, there’s [a] real squelchy kinda beat like, you know, Henry’s, like Neptune’s style, like, you know, kind of beatmaking. Like, it’s a lush, and kind of, I don’t know, it’s really quite an emotional song to me. And of course, Meklit, as a vocalist, has a real standout moment in that track. And her voice is throughout the whole album, as a backing vocals.

Jocelle:
So it ties things together.

Mo’Ju:
She provides most of the backing vocals, and then she kinda steps in the front in that song a little bit more. So it kind of showcases the collaboration, I think that was like the heart of this record, because it was so collaborative. […] Collaboration really is like, you know, part of the theme of the record in terms of like we have to come together as people and community to actually make change. That song really kind of tells the story of the record best. Like if you just have to pick one song that kind of sums it all up, I think that’s the one. Yeah, for me that that one’s particularly special.

Jocelle:
Gotcha. Yeah,, I think, after you pieced it all together, and you shared all of that I was like, oh, yeah, definitely, it does include a lot of the different elements that you’re talking about in a really beautiful way, and it’s one of my favourites as well.

Mo’Ju:
Oh, that’s great, I love that.

Jocelle:
Okay, thank you so much for your time Mo’Ju, I will let you go now, but we had so much fun chatting on this little interview. Okay, thank you so much. Have a good day.

-end of transcript-

Disclaimer: This transcript has been edited for clarity purposes.

Watch the interview on Asian Pop Weekly’s YouTube Channel

Listen to Everywhere and Nowhere live on Indiego 9pm to 12am SGT every third Thursday of the month, and on demand anytime on Spotify and iTunes! Follow Mo’Ju on Instagram, TikTok, and their official website, or check out their music on Spotify or YouTube.